I use Walmart sandpaper!
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| Zinnser Shellac ?? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10252 |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:57 pm ] |
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So I'm using the de-waxed canned stuff for FP on the spruce top and I want to make it more amber. The only problem, I can only find the Zinnser Amber that doesn't specify "dewaxed". Is it OK to mix in a small amount of the canned Amber? If not, then is it possible for me to de-wax the amber? (and how do I do it?) If that's not possible, then my only option is to dissolve dewaxed amber flakes and mix in with the Zinnser dewaxed canned stuff. TIA |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:08 pm ] |
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The Zinnser stuff causes some to shudder simply because it is an off-the- shelf commercial product, and it doesn't seem like you should ever put something on your guitar that can be found at WalMart. I think the stuff is just fine, whether it's dewaxed or not I don't know however. Wax isn't necessarily bad though. I know of people who actually prefer virgin shellac over dewaxed, although I have to say I've never truly understood what the advantages are either way. I've always used dewaxed because that's what I was originally told to use and haven't tried anything else. In any case, I've used the Zinnser amber stuff and it's worked fine with other shellac varnishes. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:16 pm ] |
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I use Walmart sandpaper!
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:35 pm ] |
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JJ, I would think that you'd be fine to mix in a bit of the amber pre-mix as long as it's been sitting for a while (so the wax can settle that is). Just take a small measuring cup from the cupboard (sneaky now) and dip it into the can for a small amount. |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:35 pm ] |
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I use the Zinnser amber shellac. I really don't understand the dewaxed thing. They both work fine for me. Al |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:46 pm ] |
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As far as I recall from what I've read. Wax in the shellac is fine if your wanting to do a matte finish, but with a high gloss, I seem to recall that it can cause clouding in the finish. I certainly could be wrong though. edit... Here's is a good article by Jeff Jewitt (he knows his stuff on finishing by the way) on shellac. Here's a quote from the article: Other characteristics to consider is whether it has been de-waxed. Dewaxed shellacs have much better transparency and moisture resistance. (The wax in the shellac reduces the clarity of the finish and also reduces the molecular weight of the shellac resin, making it less resistant to water). On the downside, dewaxed shellacs have a much shorter shelf life after mixing with alcohol (less than 6 months). |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:04 pm ] |
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To dewax shellac you can just let it sit for a day and the wax will settle to the bottom of the can, then just suck off the top layer above the wax with a turkey baster or a large syringe. If you let a can or jar of waxed shellac sit unmoved in the refrigerator the wax that settles to the bottom will thicken and you can then pour off the top layer of wax free shellac. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:36 pm ] |
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Bump for JJ |
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| Author: | bob J [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:51 pm ] |
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Isn't the de-waxed product the 'sander-sealer'? |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:01 pm ] |
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Good info on the wax, Rod. Thanks for the article. Chris...I just may try that decanting technique with cold shellac. Bob...yes, the sanding sealer is dewaxed and that's what I use for FP in place of dissolving the flakes. If it's OK for Michael and Colin, then it's OK with me! It actually looks quite nice but on the tops, I'd just like to bump the color more toward amber. |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:20 am ] |
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I've used the Zinnser shellac by letting it sit over night (after mixing with grain alcohol), then decanting the clear shellac off the wax, which settles to the bottom. I will have to try the refrigerator trick, though. Max |
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| Author: | EricSink [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:11 am ] |
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It's my understanding that one of the problems with wax in shellac is that it causes the finish to be softer. Dewaxed shellac results in a tougher, harder finish. Also: Last time I was in Menards, I noticed that Zinnser has apparently changed the name of the their sanding sealer. I always wondered why it's not just called "Shellac", and apparently now it is. Either way, it's a nice product (although I've never used it on a guitar). |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:45 am ] |
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JJ the Seal Coat is a 50% amber/ 50% blond mix as is if you want it darker amber you can add some of the StewMac vintage amber transparent tint to your mix. It works well with shellac. It take very little be sure to make up a batch big enough to fish with as it is hard to get exactly same if made in small batches unless you use a very precise formula and measuring  |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:02 pm ] |
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Thanks, Michael. I'm going to do some test panels ranging from straight seal coat to straight amber and some combos of the two. I'll bet I can find the tone I want that way. If not, I'll try the SM amber tint. In the meantime, I'll let the amber settle in the fridge for a few days before decanting. One more thing...Max can it be decanted full strength or do you have to thin it with ETOH before decanting? |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:41 pm ] |
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JJ just out of curiousity what pound of cut is the Zinser's that you are planning on using? Here's an article on how to Dewax Shellac Here's the article I read that put me off Dewaxing Shellac Dewaxing Doesn't Always Work I've made up my own blonde shellac from flakes and have found that a 2 pound cut ambers maple nicely (well at least to my eye). I bought the StewMac Amber dye to darken it and never used it as I was pleased with the hue just from the shellac. If you shoot nitro over top it should amber up nicely all on its own. JJ I don't know if you remember the finished Archtop I brought to Bob's last summer. The top on it is Engelmann with a two pound cut of blonde shellac from Lee Valley. Just my 2 cents. |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:05 pm ] |
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Thanks Anthony. Good articles. The stuff right out of the can is 2#. I am planning to FP the tops so no nitro. On my last guitar which I FP'd I felt that it was a little too pale for my taste so I want to go a bit more amber on the gang of three that I'm finishing. I coud go to the flakes and tailor the hue but I really like the convenience of the canned stuff. I'm going to try the dewaxing procedure as well as filtering before I use it. If this gets too involved I may just go with the flakes after all. |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:41 pm ] |
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JJ I didn't realize you were going to FP the top -- my mistake. I was worried about adhesion problems of Nitro over waxy shellac. The concern I would still have is how long the Zinser has been on the shelf and whether it's fresh. It's not a risk I would take considering how many man hours you've invested and how many more it'll take to finish the instrument only to find out the amber shellac isn't fresh. Call it insurance I guess. (Hopefully I haven't overstepped any bounds here as I know you've got a keen sense for detail and a bum elbow). |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:50 pm ] |
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I recently picked up a pint at Woodcraft...the mfg. date is April, 2006. I don't know if that's good or bad but that's what I have to work with. I've used clear Seal Coat that was 1 year old and had no problems. As for the elbow, it's still sore but I'm a lot more efficient with the FP motion now so I'm not expecting more trouble. |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:39 pm ] |
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JJ, I've done the decanting using the full strength stuff after a night in the fridge. I just pour the clear stuff off, and when I get close to the waxy bottom layer I stop. To get a light amber I've used Tru Oil under shellac FP. 1st seal with a couple of coats of thinned down clear shellac, then wipe on several layers of Tru Oil, let that dry and harden for a day, level, then FP over the TO. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:24 am ] |
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JJ, I've never used the stuff right out of the can, but always thinned with alcohol to get about a 1 pound cut for FP. I have heard of using it without first thinning, but never tried it personnaly. Max |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:24 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] I recently picked up a pint at Woodcraft...the mfg. date is April, 2006. I don't know if that's good or bad but that's what I have to work with. [/QUOTE] Zinsser says it's good for three years from the date on the bottom of the can, and I've never heard or read anything to the contrary. You're good 'til April, '09. Plenty of time, unless you work as slowly as I do!
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